Building A Company Customers Can't Live Without: Jim Kerr's Leadership Secrets
Becoming an extraordinary, indispensable leader who leaves an indelible mark on the world is no easy feat. You have to cultivate a thriving culture and navigate the winds of change with wisdom and purpose. In this episode, we delve into the incredible story of Jim Kerr, a highly acclaimed management consultant and leadership coach who has made a remarkable and groundbreaking impact in the world of business and leadership. Jim shares the secrets behind cultivating a company that customers are drawn to and the strategies for effective leadership and creating a thriving culture. He also discusses the future of work, providing a roadmap for leaders looking to navigate the ever-changing business landscape. In addition, he highlighted that his newest publication, "Indispensable: Build and Lead A Company Customers Can't Live Without," as well as his podcast, "The Indispensable Conversation," address issues that significantly influence leaders of every level. Jim Kerr's extensive experience and expertise will enable you to become a crucial leader within your organization by providing you with pragmatic strategies and revitalizing your sense of purpose. Get ready for an episode that will spark inspiration and propel you toward success.
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Building A Company Customers Can't Live Without: Jim Kerr's Leadership Secrets
It is my honor to introduce you to my guest, Jim Kerr. Jim’s management, consulting, and coaching work has earned numerous industry awards on the topic of leadership, culture, change management, and the future of work. You will find his name on several top ten business thought leaders lists, including those conferred by Global Gurus, leadersHum, and Thinkers360. He was ranked the number one leadership coach by Thinkers360. His book, Indispensable: Build and Lead A Company Customers Can’t Live Without, has garnered rave reviews in the trade press.
Work has begun on his seventh book, which he hopes to complete in 2023. Additionally, he hosts the popular The Indispensable Conversation Podcast, which features provocative conversations on hard-hitting topics that impact leaders of all kinds. I’m thrilled to have been featured as well. He lives with his wife in Connecticut. He has an extensive music collection, something that I admire and happen to have as well. I’m thrilled and honored to have Jim on the show. Welcome.
Tony, thanks so much. What a great introduction. It is my honor to be spending some time with you. Thanks for the opportunity.
It’s long overdue. We’re finally going to get this fire going and reveal the story of how you got to where you’re making such a huge impact in the world. It’s going to be fun.
I can’t wait. I’ll bring the marshmallows.
On the show, what we do is reveal people’s journeys to getting to where they are through what we call flashpoints. These are the points in our journey that have ignited our gifts in the world. As you’re sharing these flashpoints, what I want you to do is pause along the way, and let’s see what themes are showing up. As we journey along, we will see what we want to dig further into. I’m going to turn it over to you in a moment. Are there any questions about flashpoints for you?
I’m looking forward to it. This is exciting stuff here. Let’s go.
With that, why don’t you take it away? What’s the first flashpoint you want to bring to the table?
The first flashpoint comes from my family growing up in a working-class household in Central Massachusetts. I live in Central Connecticut now. I probably have lived in Central Connecticut longer than I lived in Central Massachusetts, but that’s beside the point. Nonetheless, my parents had drummed in the idea that education was a ticket out from that working-class background and that we’re capable of doing bigger and better things. However, so much of that rests on getting an education and creating opportunities for you to be able to get to those places where opportunities are plentiful.
I can resonate with that. Our parents always want more for us. They push that agenda of saying, “Get the education so you can get out of that cycle.” It’s admirable. Tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? What was your origin story before?
They’re working-class people. I was the first one in my family to get a college education. They came from working-class families as well. Both parents worked full-time. I was part of an extended household. My grandparents lived with us, which was a good thing looking back at that. It taught me some basic things about patience and respect for older people and that stuff, which I carry with me to this day.
That’s amazing. I love it. In terms of the moment when you’ve decided, “I’m going to get a good education,” what were the things you wanted to study? What was the thing that was present for you?
My parents had limited exposure to the business. The big thing happening in the world at that time was that computers were emerging as this cool and forward-looking opportunity. I was getting pushed to study computers but I was very entrepreneurial. I had a little side business making concert T-shirts. I was always a music fan as you pointed out earlier. I had this huge record collection. There were things like the Columbia House Records where if you got your friends to sign up, you got some free records out of the deal. I was doing that. I must have been the leading salesperson for Columbia Records at that time because I signed up probably 50 of my friends to their club.
I was always business-minded, if nothing else. I was interested in business in general. I wasn’t sure if computers per se were going to be my thing. I found a great opportunity at Bentley University. It was and still is a highly-ranked business school. It had a Computer Information Systems major. You could go there and learn about computers but also, their emphasis was computers were a tool to help businesses achieve their strategic intent. It was the perfect place for me because it gave me the business stuff and the computer science background that launched me into my first job out of college.
I want to hear about that. There’s one thing I recognize through what you shared. I’m also thinking about the work you do. You’re seeing these computers and this methodology as a tool to solve a problem, not necessarily to be an end to a goal, and even education as a way to get to an end goal. Having that business mind is something that helps to bring some different disciplines together.
There was that confluence of ideas. At that time, I probably didn’t realize that it was happening naturally but I always saw computers as a means to an end. I still believe that computing capabilities are tools for businesses. They don’t exist for any other reason except to enable a business to achieve its vision and execute its strategies to achieve that vision. That’s my mindset. I’ve been carrying that with me for years in my professional life. It’s that same notion.
Tell me about what happened when you first got into the industry. What was the first job and the things that led you to the next flashpoint?
For my first job, I came in as a database administrator, which at that time was a huge deal because mostly, you would get hired as a programmer trainee, become a programmer and then an analyst, and then get an opportunity to finally get into the database administration stuff. Here’s a big plug for Bentley. Bentley was a great place because it had leading-edge technologies and a database system that my first employer was starting to migrate to. They didn’t have anybody who had a background in it.
When I got hired, I was able to get into the database administration group because I understood the database from the work I was doing at Bentley. It leapfrogged my career by 5, 6, or 7 years that I didn’t have to spend in the trenches because I had this database experience. They were willing to take a chance on a young kid coming out of school. They plugged me into a database group where I could contribute right away.
It’s almost accidental forward-thinking.
It was. I can remember the interviews. They had interview stuff on campus. The interviewer was from the company Pratt & Whitney, a jet engine manufacturer in the Hartford area. They had come in, and they were doing interviews on campus. The person was recruiting programming talent. I had a great interview. I hit it off well with the person. At the end of the interview, the guy said, “Is there anything else you want to make sure I understand before we close it up? I’m going to make you an offer. You can be looking for that in the near future.”
I said, “What would the offer be?” He’s like, “You come in as a programmer trainee.” I said, “I don’t think that’s a great idea. I wouldn’t be interested in that.” He’s like, “Who’s this kid? What do you mean?” I said, “I don’t want to be a programmer. I’m interested in data. I got a lot out of those data management courses and database stuff. Those are the opportunities I’m looking for.” He explained to me, “That’s not how this works. You have to start here, and then over time, you get to graduate to that.” I said, “It was great. Thank you for your time.”
I don’t know what possessed me to do that except maybe pure transparency and trying to be honest with the person and not waste his time, but as it turned out, I got a rejection letter. About two weeks after that, I got another letter saying, “Can you come in and talk to us about the database stuff?” It created an opportunity that wasn’t there until this guy went back to the ranch and said, “This guy looks good but he doesn’t want to be a programmer.” He moved my resume over to the database people.
That takes guts. It’s not something you intended to necessarily push the envelope, but you did. Look what that opens up.
I call it luck. I was very lucky.
You saw the tea leaves, too, in a sense that you realized that this was an in-demand field and it was going to be growing. This is something that this company was getting into. By pushing the envelope a little bit, you realized that this was something that they were going to need.
Mostly, I understood I didn’t want to be a programmer, truth be told, but so be it. Things worked out. It was a terrific move because the next flashpoint happens.
I get hired into this database group. I have an incredible leader there who became an important figure in my life. He became my first mentor. He plugged me into a project with a consultant. I was part of a 7 or 8-person team. This consultant was a twenty-year vet. He knew his stuff and was helping the company get the database things off the ground. He was introducing a methodology that countered what I learned in college. I would argue with the guy a little bit, not so much to put him on the spot but simply to try to suggest, “There’s another way to look at this. Here’s how this works.”
At first, the guy would challenge me and say, “Come up to the board and sketch that out,” and I would. I would convince some of my more experienced players on the team that it wasn’t a bad idea. The next thing I know, this guy was complaining to my boss. He wanted to get me removed from the team because he viewed me as a disruptive force on the team.
To his credit, my mentor said, “He’s going to stay on the team.” He privately pulled me aside and said, “I’m watching what you’re doing there. I’m agreeing with you. We have to keep this guy honest. Let’s keep doing what you’re doing. It’s all about the team. Try to help us achieve what we’re trying to achieve. You know what we’re doing. Keep adding your best ideas. It’s fine. Don’t worry about it.”
That gave me huge confidence. I was able to continue to go there. As it turned out, a lot of the stuff that I had learned was transferable to the situation. The company adopted a lot of the stuff that I got from my education. It was a foundational part of my career because it showed me that you can take ideas, apply them in new ways, and make a difference for a company.
One of the things that are coming to mind as you’re sharing this, and I love what you’re sharing, is the sense that you start to build confidence by trusting your instincts, but there’s also a sense of more and more realizing that you can trust your instincts. You also still have to be mindful of how you are treating other people and ensuring that you’re connecting with other people because you can be the smartest person in the room but you still have to be mindful of how this relates to other people.
That’s hugely important. I learned some of those lessons the hard way. I got knocked down a peg here and there early in my career because of that. You don’t want to get too big for your britches. This mentor’s name is Doc Schilke. That’s when Doc came. He provided the guardrails that I needed and was an incredible coach and a great mentor. I learned a lot from this guy. He encouraged me a little later after that project was completed and we successfully implemented the stuff. He said, “What are you going to do with this theory you developed? How about writing an article?”
Here comes the next flashpoint. I didn’t know much about writing articles or anything like that. Computerworld was a leading magazine at the time. There wasn’t an online world at this point. You type it by hand and mail it to somebody. A week later, they mail it back or pick up the phone and call you. There were no texts or anything like that at this point in history.
I did the best I could to draft the theory that I was talking about. I sent it to Computerworld Magazine and got a rejection letter. I still remember the editor’s name. Her name was Amy Fiore. Amy, if you’re still out there doing stuff, thank you for this great advice. She said, “Thanks but no, thanks.” She had a phone number on the letter. I called her and said, “I know you didn’t like the article, but you didn’t give me much to go on. Can you tell me what you didn’t like about it and how I can improve it? I do think I have something here that I would love to contribute to the magazine.”
She said, “I’m not in the business of editing stuff that we’re not going to publish.” I said, “Anything you can give me will be helpful.” She goes, “I didn’t like it because it read like a term paper.” Keep in mind, she doesn’t know how old I am or anything like that. All she has in front of her is the article and my title, which was Database Administrator. She doesn’t know who she’s talking to.
Little does she know it’s a kid that’s graduated from college a couple of years ago. I said, “How can I make it better?” She goes, “We have to make it conversational.” I go, “What does that mean?” I had no clue. This is the advice. I’ll get it out there. It was funny but effective. She goes, “You have to write this so that someone sitting on the job can read it and not feel sick after they read it.”
I said, “I got it.” I rewrote it and got it back to her. Within a month, it was a featured article in Computerworld Magazine. That launched my career because, at age 24, I was being recruited by other companies, and they were flying me around to be interviewed. I became the Vice President at the Equitable insurance company at age 24. I got voted in by the board and all that because the potential that this methodology I was talking about helped.
That’s a flashpoint if I’ve ever heard one because it’s not so much the thing that you came up with or the methodology. It’s the courage to push on and ask for feedback. Many people would have said, “It didn’t work out.” They go back to the trenches and decide to go on to their normal life, but the fact that you pushed on and asked for that feedback turned you into someone who’s looking to move this to another level. It opened up so many doors and opportunities that you could never have imagined probably.
I could not have imagined it. I didn’t have anything like career progress per se in mind. It was more about contributing to the betterment of the field. My experience with this consultant was so bad that I felt like I can do this. I can bring something forward that is practical and will work and not be theoretical but practical. That’s what I felt was the beginning of what is a superpower that I still have. That’s the ability to make things simple to understand and take a big theory, bring it down, and implement it in ways that make a difference that people can feel, see, and experience.
It’s a superpower to have the ability to make things simple to understand. To take a huge theory, bring it down, and implement it in ways that actually make a difference that people can feel, see, and experience.
That makes sense. It’s also not giving up.
That’s huge. I thank my parents because I saw what they did and the sacrifices they made. My father working in a factory, would work double shifts to put food on the table. The biggest lesson I learned there was, “Don’t be afraid to work hard. It’s okay.” That’s why I pushed back against this whole concept of quiet quitting and that kind of stuff. I don’t see how you can have that mentality. I learned some lessons that are still deep inside me. You work hard and put your best effort in all the time.
I love that you bring this up because there’s this mentality, “Don’t work too hard because then it will lead to burnout.” Burnout usually happens when people have come to this place where they’re working hard toward something they don’t care about any longer. It’s almost like this sense that they have lost their passion for what they do. When you’re working hard toward something you care about, you’re willing to do the hard work to an extent. You don’t want to overdo it but the hard work mentality that was ingrained in many of us from our parents and past generations is something we should take as a positive to an extent. Make sure we’re also working smart in that element. Would you agree?
I’m with you. I do agree. If you’re not engaged and if you lack engagement with the work you’re doing, then you can get disenchanted and demotivated. You can feel burnout if you’ve got a boss that’s demanding you to get stuff done. If it’s just a job, then I would recommend, “Don’t quiet quit. Just quit.” If you care about what you’re doing, if it makes a difference, and if you can connect your work activity to something bigger than yourself, then work matters. You can work hard and long to achieve that because it makes a bigger difference. There’s an impact you’re trying to have beyond even the company.
I’m working with a company. They have been one of my favorite clients that I’ve had over the years. They’re in the defense manufacturing business. They make vehicles that kids who volunteer in service of their countries get in every day. The thing that I try to connect with is the fact that their work matters because they bring kids home alive back to their parents, loved ones, mothers, fathers, boyfriends, or girlfriends. That matters.
If you’re an engineer in this company and you’re worrying about the fault tolerance of this switch or something, maybe it seems monotonous and doesn’t seem to matter but it matters. I try to help people see that the work they’re doing matters. The more that people feel that way, the more committed and engaged they are and the better it is for them and the companies they work for.
That’s so true. I love what you shared because sometimes we lose the sense of what matters and need to be reminded of it. It comes on the leadership of the organization and sometimes on ourselves to remember, “Before I decide to quiet quit, why did I get started in this? Why do I do what I do? If I can’t figure out why, then maybe it’s time to reconsider.” Get back to the core.
I want to get back into your story again. I’m going to put the light back on you. I want to get to what brought you to the work you’re doing. Maybe there’s a flashpoint that brought you from being in the work to helping other people to do their life work.
Fast forward to my next big mentor at my new company, his name was Jim Johnson. He took a big risk hiring me at 24 years old with very little practical experience. He put me in charge of the company’s data strategy. It was based on this theory that I presented in this article. He said, “We’re going to surround you with the team and invest in some technology. I want you to bring this to our company.” Here’s a huge thank you to Jim. If he didn’t take the chance, who knows if we would be talking?
Once I got there, he did everything that he promised. I started to develop a lot of the stuff and implement it. I was writing about it in other magazines. I wrote for Computerworld quite a bit. InformationWeek was a big magazine then. I was writing similar stuff there. I had a column in Database Magazine. I had been able to leverage the idea of writing as a way to contribute to the betterment of the thinking around my field. I was continuing to do that.
At the same time, I finished my Master’s degree at Rensselaer. I had a professor there that said, “You bring a lot to this stuff. Did you ever think about teaching?” I said, “I had not.” He goes, “Come back next week and give me your first lesson. I’ll be your audience. Let’s see how you do.” I did, and he gave me a job as an adjunct professor. I was challenged to say, “What am I going to teach people?”
I took a lot of the content I had developed in these articles and started to convert them into content I could brief on so I could give class lectures on that stuff. The next thing I know, I had enough to write a book. I took all that stuff, and my first book gets written. It was snail mail time. There was no internet yet or anything. I mailed it to an editor at Wiley & Sons.
I found this person from a book I had been reading that she had edited. I knew her name, and I knew she was in New York. I was able to call Wiley. They put me in touch. I mailed it to her. She had a contract for me within a month. She’s like, “This is a book I want. Let’s do it.” That was that. That launched me to answer the question, “How did I get into helping other people?”
When that book came out, the phone started ringing off the hook. It was well-received. It resonated with people that were doing the work I was doing. The next thing I know, I recognized very quickly, “I can sell this advice because I’m giving it away for free. Every time the phone rings, I’m giving my advice away.” That got me thinking about consulting, and that led to where I am now.
It’s interesting. It starts there. It’s also about building confidence and having an instinct, “There’s something here but there’s also something that I recognize in this. Other people have to believe in you along that journey.” You mentioned a lot of mentors along the way who brought about something in you, saw something in you, and allowed you to see it in yourself. In many ways, that’s what you’re doing for others. You’re giving them the chance to not only open up opportunities for them to do more of what they’re meant to be doing but it’s believing in them.
You hit it on the nail on the head there. Helping people know that you believe in them can open up a fountain of inspiration within that individual. They go, “If Tony thinks I’m doing okay and if this is a good thing, then maybe I should try to do something more with it.” You try a little more and put it out there. Someone else picks it up and goes, “I want to publish this.” I must be onto something because there’s a lot of self-doubt. There’s stuff like Imposter syndrome. All that stuff starts to happen to us, especially when we get a certain amount of success early on in our careers. You wonder, “How could I be able to do this?” You start to doubt yourself. You need the guides, the mentors, and the coaches along the way to help you get through it.
Helping people know that you believe in them can open up a fountain of inspiration within that individual.
When you had that early success, you think, “Maybe it was a fluke or I got lucky. How do I repeat that success and make it something that will continue as I move on?” Time is flying by. I want to make sure we hit some more notes here. When you think about the books that you’ve written, which one are you most proud of? Tell me about the one that stands out that you want to share with the audience.
The one I’m most proud of is the one I’m writing right now in 2023.
Tell us a little bit about it.
It’s a coaching book. It’s aimed not at coaches but at leaders who want to fold coaching into their leadership repertoire. It provides hands-on tips on how to do that. It’s fortified with additional ideas about how to take the tip and apply it, whether you’re at the top of the business, in the middle management layer, or in a supervisory role. Every idea that I present in the book offers further ideas on how to apply it depending on where you sit in an organization. Any leader at any level can get something out of the book.
I love that. Something that comes immediately to mind is a sense that you can’t have the insight. You have to have action. When you give them something that allows them to apply the work, it becomes a more powerful tool.
I want it to be a reference source. I want people to read it and go back to it over and over again. I can see that there aren’t any books out there on that or like that. It’s a practical guide on how to coach the people you lead.
I’m compelled to ask you a very challenging question because you’re a knowledgeable person in my mind. I want to know. Here’s the zinger. It’s not that challenging. It’s more introspective. When you look back on your journey and think about the things you’ve learned about yourself that you haven’t already shared, what are some lessons you’ve learned that you want to share with people?
First off, dream big. Don’t be self-limiting. Try to figure out what you want to become and make that the vision that you work toward. People have written about it. If you think about The Secret, people often point to that book. It was on Oprah’s Book Club and all that stuff. What it’s saying is if you know what you’re trying to accomplish, you’re going to start to run in circles with people who can help you accomplish it because you’re pursuing it and doing something. It starts with a dream. You have to dream big and then start doing stuff to get there. You will surround yourself and develop a network of people that will help you to do it because it’s good for them to help you.
Dream big. Don't be self-limiting.
Is there anything else you want to add to that mix?
The other thing is to stick with it. The flip side of that is it’s cool to have a dream, but it’s hard to accomplish if it’s big enough. Be ready to roll up your sleeves, do the work, and stick with it because you’re going to have adversity. There are going to be people around you that are betting against you and don’t believe you can accomplish it. I remember when I first started writing the first book. A lot of people said, “You’re going to write a book. Who is going to publish the book you’re going to write?”
Some of them are close family members that didn’t believe that it could be done. Here I am, talking to you in the middle of writing my seventh book. You can do it. You have to stick with it. You have to be willing to work through adversity, but if it’s worth achieving, then you will find it within yourself to have the fortitude to hang in there and get stuff done. You will accomplish great things if you can dream big and be willing to work hard to get there.
A couple of things come to mind because I love what you’re sharing. The 10X goal is much easier to attain than 2X because if you think incremental, you might be like, “It’s not going to move the needle. Why bother?” If you think 10X, then it has you thinking bigger and more exponentially and requires you to enlist the help of other people and ask for help, although, on the surface, it can seem like, “Who am I to ask for help? People are going to think I’m weak.” The reality is asking for help is the strongest thing you can do because it requires you to be able to see, “What do I bring to the table? What do other people bring to the table to make something massive happen?”
It takes courage to ask for help. It is a strength. If we allow our fear to be a self-limiting force in our life, then we’re not going to accomplish very much because accomplishing big things requires big efforts. It takes courage. You’re going to need help to get there because none of us can do any of it alone. Maybe those are the ingredients for everyone who has success in their chosen career.
If we allow our fear to be that self-limiting force in our life, we're not going to accomplish very much.
Think of world-class athletes. They all have coaches. Tiger Woods has a swing coach, a short game coach, a mental coach, and a nutritionist. He’s a world-class athlete. Why can’t leaders get coaches? Why is there any shame in that? Somehow there is. It’s guys like us that have to demystify that a little bit by shining a light and showing people, “The coach might be the single most important thing you could invest in, in regard to investing in one’s self and career.”
We will insert the PSA here. I’m kidding.
That’s not my intention. I believe it. I’m not trying to sell anything. I’m trying to point it out. If you’re one of these people reading this and you think coaches are only for people that are weak, you’re wrong. Rethink it because the best among us have coaches, and it helps them become the best among us.
I couldn’t agree with you more. This is exactly what drove me to do the work that I do. We’re coming to the close of our time together. I have one last question to ask you. This is the question I ask every guest. What are two books that have had an impact on you and why?
One that I keep coming back to again and again is The 500 Year Delta by Watts Wacker, who was a futurist. I’m not sure how well it sold at that time. It’s an older book. His premise is that great change happens in 500-year waves. In the book, he talks about how something that happened 500 years ago, if you pull the thread, materializes in something now. If it weren’t for that innovation 500 years ago, we wouldn’t get to this innovation now. He predicts in the book a bunch of things that have materialized in the last few years since I read the book. That’s why I keep going back to it.
He talked about at the time personalized medicine where we could take DNA and create specific cures for people based on their DNA. It’s pretty remarkable. Years ago, I’m sure people were talking about it, but it wasn’t generally talked about. Now, it’s generally talked about. Artificial intelligence is the same stuff. He writes about in the book some of the implications of that.
I can remember back at Bentley. Here I go. It’s a full circle. To graduate from Bentley with a computer science degree, at that time, you had to have an undergrad dissertation. You had to do a fair amount of research, write a paper, and then present the paper. I wrote, believe it or not, about artificial intelligence. I hate to admit it but it was in the ‘80s.
There was already in the labs the capability to say, “Write me a poem with twelve lines about birds in a tree.” Five minutes later, here’s a twelve-line poem about birds in a tree. That was years ago, and now we’re sitting here going, “ChatGPT is a breakthrough.” It’s a breakthrough that has probably been at least 60 years in the making because the research I was doing then dated back 10, 12, or 15 years before I was reporting on it. This AI stuff is an overnight sensation, except it took 60 years to get here.
It’s interesting you bring that up. I love that you shared it because everyone always looks at the end result and thinks, “This is amazing,” but they don’t have any clue about the journey it took to get there on so many things. They look at the surface, but they don’t understand what’s beneath the surface and realize, “This has been going on for X amount of years. They have taken this long to get here.”
A close friend of mine at the time was doing a thing on automating the household. Now we got microchips and everything. We can lock doors, turn on lights, get the coffee maker to start, and all that other stuff. That’s priceless. In the early ‘80s, there wasn’t any of that. We’re seeing the commercialization of all this stuff all over the place. What we think of is, “Where did this come from?” It has come from, more than likely, decades of work.
This has been amazing. I don’t want to keep you much longer, but we could talk for hours. I have to thank you for bringing yourself and all your insights, stories, and amazingness into this space. Thank you, Jim.
It has been nothing but a pleasure. I’m with you. We could talk all day about this stuff. I am grateful for the opportunity you gave me to share this with your audience. Thank you, Tony.
Thank you. Before I let you go, I want to make sure that our audiences know where to find you. What’s the best place to learn more about you and reach out?
Jim, this is brilliant. Thank you so much. Thanks to the audience for coming on the journey with us. I know you’re leaving feeling like your mind is blown up and expanded from all the insights. Please, continue to follow Jim. It’s going to be worth your time and effort. Thanks again. That’s a wrap.
- Indispensable: Build and Lead A Company Customers Can’t Live Without
- The Indispensable Conversation
- The Secret
- The 500 Year Delta
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