The Art Of Slow Looking: Revolutionize Your Museum Visits And Personal Connections With Claire Bown

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Through the art of slow looking, we unveil a world of hidden wonders, where the ordinary becomes extraordinary and the familiar reveals its secrets. It is a journey that transforms our perception, fuels our curiosity, and invites us to connect deeply with art and culture. In this episode, special guest Claire Bown takes us to the world of "slow looking at art" and explores the transformative power of the "Visible Thinking in the Museum" approach. She discusses how individuals can enhance their experience with art and culture, pulling insights from her upcoming book, “Slow Looking at Art: The Visible Thinking in the Museum Approach." Tune in and uncover the secrets to developing a deeper connection with art, honing your observation skills, and fostering meaningful interactions in museum settings. Prepare to see the world of art in a whole new light!


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The Art Of Slow Looking: Revolutionize Your Museum Visits And Personal Connections With Claire Bown

It is my honor to introduce you to my guest, Claire Bown. She is a museum educator, trainer, facilitator, podcast host, and soon to be author. She loves teaching people the secrets of facilitating engaging experiences with art and objects in museums and galleries. She works online and in person with museum educators, guides, teachers, and creatives to help them confidently design and lead engaging inquiry-led programs for any audience.

Claire teaches people techniques such as slow-looking and visible thinking in the museum to help them engage and connect with art, objects, and ideas. She is also the host of the very cool podcast, The Art Engager. She is UK-born but lives in the Netherlands. She has two cats named Buzz and Jess, and she rides her bike everywhere. Claire, I am so honored and thrilled to welcome you to The Virtual Campfire.

Thank you so much for inviting me. What a fantastic introduction.

It just touches the surface. There are so many great things you're doing. I'm so thrilled to dig into your story. We're going to have a lot of fun. As I said before we got started, and most people on the show already know this, I love museums. I love art. It is a guilty pleasure of mine to talk to somebody who engages in this way. It's going to be fun.

We're going to start with uncovering your story, what got you to where you are today, and making such a big impact. We're going to do it through what's called flashpoints. These are the points in your journey that have ignited your gifts into the world. As you're going through your journey, you can start wherever you like and share what you're called to share. Along the way, we'll pause and see what themes are showing up. Claire, I'm going to turn it over to you when you're ready. Take it away.

Thank you so much. Where to start? I love the idea of flashpoints. I love the idea of thinking about the milestones that have happened along the way. I'm going to take you back to the 1990s, to university. I did a course in European Studies in French and German, which is essentially learning the languages, but also the cultures behind those languages. There is a lot of history, art, culture, politics, and a little bit of economics. It’s a fascinating degree.

After that, I combined my passions. I was interested more not just in the nuts and bolts of the language that I was learning but also in the cultures and the societies behind it, and very much the art and the history that was involved. I got my first job as a tour manager. This was in 1995. It was a very hot summer in Europe. I was charged with being on several tours around Europe with a group on a tour bus.

My job as a tour manager was to manage the group, get them from A to B, but also to provide information, to share the delights of the things that we were seeing when we traveled through Belgium, Germany, Austria, and all the countries that we visited, and working out what was important to tell them and what wasn't important to tell them, what they might be interested in, and what might send them to sleep on the coach. I used to have some cassette tapes where Richard Clayderman was very good at getting the group to go off and have a nap if they were a little bit tired in the afternoon.

It was a great introduction to the art of a guided experience. That summer of 1995 was a key point for me in my career. Looking back, all those experiences have pretty much turned me into the person I am today, which is interested in what makes a great museum experience, what makes a great guided experience, what makes a great guided tool, and what makes a great guide or the person who might share that information or might connect with the people.

Doing it on a coach is very different from doing it standing in a museum in front of an artwork. On a coach, you've got all sorts of things going on. It was a very interesting summer. I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot about what not to do, what works, and lots of things that didn't work. It was a very interesting summer.

You just tapped into something interesting, which is that in order to be a good guide, you have to be a good explorer. It’s that interest and desire to explore, see what's out there, learn, and then be able to educate others about what you're seeing.

Curiosity is at the heart of all of that. If I wasn't as curious about the places we were seeing as I was, that would've come across to the people I was with. My passion and enthusiasm are quite contagious in all those experiences. I learned so much even thinking about what information to share. If you're visiting a city for the first time, you can't share everything about Paris or Berlin. You have to narrow it down and you have to have a focus. That's something that comes up time and time again in my work now. Back then, I didn't know what a fabulous preparation it would be for what I'm doing now. It was a pretty good start, plus I got to travel and see amazing places and eat lots of lovely food.

If you're visiting a city for the first time, you can't share everything about Paris or Berlin. You have to narrow it down and you have to have a focus.

You can't leave out the food. A great thing about travel is the experience of different cultures and food. Tell me what happens next. Here you are in the ‘90s, and you're doing this great experience. When did it turn that you're like, “I need to do something different?”

I did one season. You can tell it was quite full on. It was very intense. You live out of a suitcase for a long time. You’re not at home. I decided after that one season that I wanted to work in educational travel. I got a job in London. It’s office-based, not traveling on the road, not on a tour bus. My job was behind the scenes. I was working for a company that brought American high school students to Europe. My job was to plan and book all their activities. These activities could be anything from a city tour, so guided tours again, but also things like going up mountains, walking tours, visiting chocolate shops, all sorts of things.

As part of that job, I got to go and test out all the experiences. Not only was I office-based, I still got to travel. I could still go to some wonderful European capitals, get to know the guides that I was working with in places like Vienna and other countries, and get to observe their tours and see how they were doing things, and see if we could improve their scores.

It was a very different audience that these city guides were working with. They were mainly working with American high school students, and they were sending them to sleep half the time. They were boring them with information. Though this is still the 1990s, I can remember saying then to these guides when I would go and visit them and say, "You don't have to share everything. You don't have to share everything you know about this subject. You make it more interactive. You make it more participative."

At the time, I got so many blank stares because traditional tour guide training back then, and still in some places now, was very much on the knowledge, not so much on the connections you make with people or the way you share that knowledge or how you make people feel. All they knew how to do was to be very knowledgeable about a subject, not how to connect with people or how to share that information.

It was quite a tough job but I did love it like I've loved all my jobs that I've done. It gave me the opportunity to hone my skills and also be creative. I used to design custom itineraries. A teacher would say, “We're interested in going to this place. Can you design an itinerary around it?” There was some creativity involved.

The thing I'm taking away from this, which is amazing, is this sense of it's not about the guide and it's not about even the place, it's about connecting with your audience. People often say when you're presenting in front of people, you have to know your audience and how are you going to engage with them. Even if you had the most amazing place, you have to make sure that you package it in a way that allows them to say, “This makes sense. I want more of this. I want to listen more intently.” It's about the delivery and knowing your audience well.

Also, connection over content is something I talk about all the time. Connection before content is so important. If you haven't connected with the people or the group that you’re with, then it's much harder for that content to land. It's much harder for it to be sticky for them to be able to hold onto something in their brain. It's important to make connections. It's important to filter and streamline the information that you share with people. I always say that if you're sharing all your knowledge, you are wasting it. You are literally pouring it out and nobody is paying attention. They become overwhelmed and they tune out. It's very much an overload. Connection is so important in the work that we do.

Connection before content is so important. If you haven't connected with the people you are with, then it's much harder for that content to land.

We talked about curation earlier before we got on the show. It's about curating and giving less is more, knowing what to give as opposed to giving it all. Here's where I want to go. I'm going to change my thought stream here. When have you had a disaster situation in this work? Have there been any situations where you are willing to share but things didn't go according to plan for you?

Do you mean when I was facilitating a tour or guided experience?


Lots of times. If you are a person like me who likes to experiment and try things out, they don't always work. You are also not always aware of where the group has been before they arrive with you, even with the best intentions and the best plan and strategy to connect with them and get them interacting, it can fall flat because they're tired. They stayed up until 12:00 last night, or they had a big journey. You're at the mercy of the circumstances and the way they arrive at the museum. I've definitely had teenage groups where there has been no interaction at all, and no desire for interaction. Even trying everything that I know and with the experience that I have, sometimes you have to say, “Let's call it quits.”

VCP 214 | Slow Looking

Another time that comes to mind is I used to do private tours, so small groups and museums. This was a few years back in Amsterdam. Now and again, I would get one person who booked the tour. That's very nice. You have a one-to-one and you think, "It's very conversational. It's going to be chatty,” which is the way I work. I don't work in a lecture style. It's very much back and forth. It’s very two-way.

I met this one person. Within the first five minutes, he said, “Don't ask me any questions. I just want to listen.” It was a three-hour tour and I was thinking, “I can't talk for that long. I literally can’t. I knew a lot of stuff, but I would lose my voice.” I set myself a challenge to say, “Let's try it his way to start with. Let's see if every so often, I can try and build up some connections and ask very low-threshold gentle questions, and see how it works."

I kept trying this. Every fifteen minutes, I'd try something. It’s building those connections with people because you never know whether it's because of someone's schooling, whether they didn't have that kind of schooling, it was very much one way, or whether it is to do with their personality or how they've arrived. You can try a lot of things to try and connect with people, and see if it'll make a difference.

I'm pleased to say, with this one person, it did make a difference. I did have to put in quite a lot of effort. By the end, we were chatting like you and I are. It did take a lot of work on my part to connect and find out what he was interested in. It worked, but it doesn't always. In this life, you have to be prepared to have moments where things don't quite go to plan, and then think what you can learn from them, and what you might do differently next time. There are many that I could recount.

I'm so glad I asked that question. There's something about that which is amazing. You have to be able to adapt to those situations and give people grace. Sometimes, we don't know where they're coming from. Maybe they're having a bad day and they feel like, "I don't want to talk." Let that play out and see what happens, you never know what could transpire.

You never know if it could be a more memorable experience than they thought they were going to have. They might remember more about it. It's important.

Tell me what happens next in your journey. Is there another flashpoint you want to point out? What happens as you continue to progress in your career?

There was a switch when I had three kids. They're now in their teens. I had children and we moved countries. We moved to the Netherlands when my children were very small. I've got twins. They were eight months old when we moved here. At that time, I wasn't working because we'd moved to a new country. I had a few years thinking about, “Where do I want to go next? What's my next move?”

This was quite a crazy decision at the time, maybe I was sleep deprived, but I decided when my twins were three and my son was five that I'll do a master's. Instead of going back to work, I thought, “I'll do some study.” At that time because I've been so absorbed with the children, I couldn't read a newspaper without losing my concentration. I was thinking, “How will I focus? How will I get back into it?” I knew I was craving something. It was my husband who said to me, “What about museum studies? You love museums. You’ve worked a lot with museums.”

On the other side of it in educational travel, I used to work in partnership with museums. "What about doing a Master in Museum Studies?" I actually found a course in Amsterdam and I enrolled straight away. I did a Master in Museology in my late 30s, which didn't feel like a pivot to me, but it was a real moment that stands out or a flashpoint, as you would say. This is where I'm placing a line in the sand. This is when I'm deciding what I'm going to do next.

I loved the master’s even though it was very hard to get back into academic writing and reading. It was very practical, which I love. I'm a very practical person. I got lots of experience and made lots of contacts, which was so very helpful in my next steps after that. It was a fantastic thing to do. Although at the time, I did question my decision to do it when the children were so young. We do these things sometimes.

It takes a lot of courage to do that. A lot of people think that at that stage, not to say 30 years old because it's not, you're starting something new. “Is this the right move?" I'm glad you did and I'm sure you are too. It opens you up to see that this is possible. “I can do this. I got to create space for the things that are important to me. Even though there are multiple things that are important to me, my kids, and this path, I can do both."

It was following your passions, although I had some of that when I worked in educational travel. Quite early on in the master’s, it was museum education that I was specializing in. That's what I was interested in and learning that part, how people learn in museums, how people learn from objects, and how people learn from art. That was what I was thinking about. At that point, I didn’t have any real plans about how I would take it forward either. It was almost an exercise in curiosity itself thinking, “Where will this take me?” Luckily, it took me to great places. The work I've been doing since has been fantastic. At the time, I didn't have a huge plan. It was a great thing to do.

That's also brilliant because we don't necessarily have to have it all figured out. We can always follow that passion step and say, “This is interesting to me. If it is calling me, it opens a door to something that could be possible. Who knows where this will lead?” It's cool that this is where you're going with the conversation.

You talk about doors. If I hadn't done the master's, It wouldn't have led me to where I had to do an internship as part of the master’s. It wouldn't have led me to the research that led me to discover visible thinking and slow looking, and thinking about this in a very deep way, which then led to me starting my own business. It was all a domino effect. The masters led to this internship at a museum in Amsterdam. It used to be called the Rodin Museum, now it's part of the Museum of World Cultures.

I was doing some research there. They asked me to look into what international primary school children and their teachers wanted from museum visits. I did some research. I spoke to a lot of teachers in focus groups. The teachers I was speaking to shared lots of information about the innovative methods they were using in their teaching practices. In one of these focus groups, that's when one of the teachers mentioned these words, “Have you heard of visible thinking, Claire?” I hadn't at the time. She said, “I think it could have great applications within the museum environment.” She gave me a name, a book, and a website to look up. I went, “Fascinating,” and off I go, not thinking that much would come of it.

At the time, I was thinking, “That sounds interesting.” I'm not sure if that would translate from the classroom to the museum and how that would work. I looked it up. I did a lot of reading and had that classic light bulb moment where you go, “Hang on a minute, there's something here. This might work.” The more I read, the more I thought of possibilities. There were not just light bulbs going off but fireworks and thinking, "I could do this or I could do that." That was definitely a flashpoint moment in all senses of the world, fireworks, pyrotechnics, and everything. Everything from that has led me to where I am now. It's been quite the journey.

I love what you're sharing. The follow-on effect is pulling the threads of these interests and seeing where they lead. For the sake of our audience, making sure they understand, how would you define visible thinking and also slow looking?

Two terms. Let's start with visible thinking. The first time I heard it, I thought, “What is this? This sounds quite new age. What does it mean?” Visible thinking is a project from Harvard's Graduate School of Education. They have a project called Project Zero. It's a research group. As part of the research group, they have lots of different projects. One of their projects is called visible thinking.

It started in 2000, so 23 years ago this year. It was a project that started in schools and was developed with teachers, students, and researchers. It was very much classroom-based. The idea was to make opportunities for thinking more visible in the classroom environment. When we think about thinking, most of the time, most of the thinking happens in our heads.

There's a meme that's out there on the internet, which shows a picture of a person saying, "What I think," with a huge cloud bubble above their head with loads of thoughts in it. The next frame is, "What I say," and that's a very small portion of what we've seen in the previous one. Most of what we think stays in our heads. The idea of visible thinking is there are a number of practices, protocols, and tools that help make that thinking and those opportunities for that thinking more visible. It's getting it out of our heads and allowing us to articulate it.

VCP 214 | Slow Looking

This can be done through discussions, which we have a lot of in the museum. It can be done through listening, but also by being part of a group effort, a culture of listening to other people, and sharing their thinking. I don't want to confuse anybody too much, but one of the main practices associated with visible thinking is thinking routines. These are very small easy-to-remember frameworks that help structure our thinking. Something like see, think, and wonder, for example. That's a very brief introduction. I could talk about this all day, but I'm aware that it might be too much. It might be information overload as we've already talked about. That's the introduction to visible thinking.

Slow-looking, on the other hand, is the art of learning through observation. That is a practice that can happen anywhere. Nobody knows exactly where it originated. It may have come from the '60s. It may have come from the slow movement. In Praise of Slow, Carl Honoré's book, may have been an influence on it, or slow art day. We’re not sure where the phrase came from, but it has definitely picked up traction in the last 10 years or so, particularly in the last 2 or 3 years.

It's the art of using your observation skills to find out more about something, so learning through observation. You can do that anywhere. I do it in a museum, but you can do it in your back garden. You can do it in the classroom. In all sorts of places, there are opportunities for slow looking. It's another wonderful phrase and a wonderful practice to get involved with.

Thank you for touching the surface of both of these concepts. It's something that a lot of people can find a lot of value in it. We'll talk a bit about your book that's coming up. This is something that it is going to touch on. This is something that we all need more of in our lives right now, especially when we're so distracted. We also are desiring more connections. The thought of visible thinking is a very great tool for us to be able to express more of who we are with each other. That's a great thing for us to do now.

If not now, then when is what springs to mind. I've been working in this way for thirteen or so years. I've definitely seen things change in the last few years, particularly since the pandemic when we are craving connection much more than we were before because we were cut off from people for so long. Museums can play a huge role in that with connecting people, providing spaces where people can come together, and explore an object or an artwork.

VCP 214 | Slow Looking

Those experiences can not only be memorable but they can be transformative. They can have a real effect on people. They can also teach us skills. Not only can they be a fun experience, and we're all talking about what we like or we don't like or what we see in artwork or what we think about it, but we can also develop our observation skills and learn to focus on something for a slightly longer period of time.

That all translates into the world outside. I know from my work, teaching slow looking and using it translated to when I go for a walk, I notice more. I pay attention to my surroundings. I'm noticing the change of the seasons or listening to and hearing a bird. All these things, as a result of practicing slow looking in my work, are transferred over into my personal life. It's something that we all need. It's also something that is so beneficial to us in many different ways.

I'm completely taken aback by what you're sharing. Part of this is in realizing that we didn't know how much we needed something until it was taken away from us. When it's taken away from us, then we have a heightened sensitivity or a desire for it. This connection or this desire to see more and to have more awe in our life is where we're at right now. It’s this desire for more experience. Museums are a great medium for us to be able to have that because it's a place where we can all come together and see things together. It's a great focal point. I have to ask because this is about you. Looking at where you are now and reflecting back on your journey so far, would you ever have imagined you'd be doing this work?

That's a great question. Yes and no. I'd have to answer that. Even when I was at university, I had a very clear idea of what I enjoyed doing and what I didn't enjoy doing. I know the choices that I took throughout my degree. When we were able to make choices, all were towards the arts. My thesis was on some realism and film. It’s little signs then. I was the arts editor of the university newspaper. At the time, I didn't think much of it. Looking back, maybe that was a sign. All these little things point in a certain direction. Maybe you don't connect the dots at the time. You connect them afterward. That's probably why I say yes and no.

I guess like the film Sliding Doors, we could take all these little turns at any time, and end up in a different direction. I could have gone down a completely different route. I'm very happy where I am now. I love what I do. It makes it very easy to get out of bed in the morning. I enjoy my work. I have a real passion for it. There's no better place to be. If we spend all this time working in our lives, it's got to be enjoyable. You have to have a passion for it. That's what drives me and continues to drive me.

There's no better place to be really, if we spend all this time working in our lives. It has to be enjoyable. You have to have a passion for it.

First of all, it's very palpable. When I hear you talk about it, it's so real. The reason why I ask this question is because it's like you start to have these little kernels of, “This could be a path that I'm on. I like the arts,” but it becomes more expansive the more you dig into the world and start to see more possibilities. There are more things you can dig even further into, and that's where you've gotten into this world of visible thinking and slow-looking. You see this is more than just, "It’s nice to be around art and what have you. It has a visceral impact on people. I'm playing a role in helping to make that happen.” You feel that positive impact on how you're creating something in the world that is impacting people.

It's a real pleasure. I don't do as many guided tours as I used to. I've done guided tours in all formats. Most recently, it’s mainly in museums and mainly with art, but also with objects and historical museums. It's a real privilege to be able to connect with people, and to have those experiences, and to feel as a guide, as a docent, and as an educator that you're making a difference. You saw in someone's face that they were moved by something. You saw that this was a memorable moment for them or it sparks a connection that they haven't remembered for years. That's a real privilege to see.

It's so far removed from the traditional way of working in museums. Perhaps some people have the idea that we still work in that way, which is the walk and talk. Some places will still do that, but that's on a different level. You're not connecting with people in that way. You are literally transmitting the information. Working in the way that I do, which I now teach people how to make these connections with people and connect them with the art and with the objects, is so rewarding.

You never find yourself repeating the same thing. You're not standing in front of The Night Watch by Rembrandt and saying the date, I think it’s 1648 off the top of my head. You're not spouting that information. You're encouraging people to share what they think, what they see, what they notice, what they think might be going on, or why the artist painted it.

The conversation we have today will be different than the conversation we might have tomorrow because it's a different group, a different time, and the museum is different. All these different variables come to play. That's a real privilege for me. It is seeing it works and making those connections with people. It's a privilege to do this work.

That’s the great thing about how that connects back to your prior experiences. How do we create something that connects with people? It’s not just spouting facts and doing things that self-serve and says, “This is what we want to give people.” It's not what we want to give people. It's what the people want to receive that it is going to connect with.

It's a switch from that sage on the stage. It happened in schools and classrooms, from teachers being the expert and then transmitting their information. It's the same in museums. Museums used to hire a lot of their guides and docents based on their knowledge. They were knowledgeable enough. They do this now, obviously. They weren't hiring based on whether they could connect with people or whether they could manage the group well.

All these other factors are so important to facilitation. I always say it's much more a facilitator's role that we are doing because you're wearing so many different hats at the same time. They're just as crucial if not more important than the information you might have in your head. You may still be an expert, but you're not positioning yourself as an expert. You're almost the co-explorer with the group helping them to discover rather than being the expert or the sage on the stage.

It makes it more interesting and fun for you too. You're like, “What am I going to learn today with these people who are on this journey with me?” It's not just stale.

They do sometimes notice something that you've never seen before. You've stood in front of that object or that artwork maybe 100 or 200 times, and they notice a small detail and you think, “I've never seen that before,” or “I've never thought of it that way.” You get as much out of it as well. You also benefit as the facilitator of these types of experiences.

Before we get too close to the end, I want to ask, could you share a little bit about your new book that's coming out? Maybe some key ideas you want to get across, what the book is about, the title, and all.

I'm in the thick of it at the moment literally, in between talking to you and once we finish this call. We're doing final edits and layout and all these sorts of exciting things. The book is out in September. It's a book about the approach or the method that I've been developing over the last twelve-plus years. It's called Slow Looking at Art: The Visible Thinking in the Museum Approach.VCP 214 | Slow Looking

It's about all the different foundations and practices that make up this approach. It's a guidebook. It's a toolkit. It has lots of practical exercises. Although it's based on theory, it's grounded in practical applications. It's very much about how you might use this. It's for educators and guides, and ways of leading these types of programs.

I'm sharing lots of the practices, which are things like improving your questioning skills, working on your facilitation, creating a culture of collaboration, and all the things. There are eight different practices that are essential. I'm also talking about information, how you share information, and how you whittle it down. It's maybe the first of many books. Who knows? We'll see after this experience. It's a guidebook for educators on how to work in this way in the museum, and how to apply it to create these participative and interactive participant-centered programs.

I'm blown away. I can't wait to get my hands on this book. It's not just for facilitators. I think it's going to be more than that. It's going to be helping other people who are leading groups and want to get better at asking the right questions and connecting from what you're sharing. It's something that I'm excited about.

That's so nice to hear. I've written it so you can dive into separate chapters. You can read the whole thing from cover to cover, but if maybe you want to brush up on a certain skill, you can look at that relevant chapter.

We're coming close to the end of our time. I wanted to ask more questions, but this is the last question. On the topic of books, what are one or two books that have had an impact on you and why?

I'm a trainer and facilitator, so I have lots of books. I have to whistle them down every so often. This was quite difficult, but what I tried to do was to pick a couple of books that I come back to, so books that I might pick up time and time again. The first book would be Making Thinking Visible, which is about the visible thinking approach. I'm on my second copy of that. I wore the first one out because I used it too much.

That's about visible thinking in schools and how it works. It's got some of the thinking routines in it, which the way I work, thinking routines are applicable in all sorts of environments. Not just in the classroom but also in museums, corporate environments, and meetings. They're useful structures for supporting our thinking. That's one book.

I'm a person who's always looking to improve the questions I ask. If you're interested in questions as I am, A More Beautiful Question by Warren Berger is one of my favorites. I refer back to that a lot. He refers to himself as a questionologist. If there is such a thing, he's definitely it. It's a great book. It's about the power of inquiry to spark ideas. It does a deep dive into questioning.

My final one would be The Art of Noticing. This is a fantastic book by Rob Walker. It's a book that you can dive into and dip into when you want. It's all sorts of mini-exercises that you can do when you're out and about or when you're in a museum or when you're sitting at your desk or at home to notice more. It’s little things like taking a color walk or stopping and staring at a view, and different exercises that you can do to improve your observation skills. Also, stop, slow down, and notice the world around you. It's a wonderful book.

All three of those are amazing. I have all three of them. I do have the first one too. Rob has been on the show. Rob Walker is one of my guests and we had a great conversation. I’m a huge fan of that book. I'm totally taken aback by everything you've shared. This has been fantastic. Thank you for being on the show. Before you go, I want to make sure that everyone has a chance to know where they can find you, where they can find your podcast and all the fun things. Where is the best place to find you?

The best place to find me is on my website, I'm on social media channels pretty much, not all but the main ones, @ThinkingMuseum. You can find me on those. My podcast is called The Art Engager. It's all about how to engage with arts and objects, not just for educators but for anyone interested in slowing down, noticing more details, and interested in art and culture. That's available on all the podcast platforms.

Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I wish we could have another hour of conversation. Thank you for being on the show. Thanks to the audience for coming on the journey.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.

Thanks again.

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